Zakus in Gundam SEED Destiny

[isaacjoule]

Zakus in SEED Destiny

*Before I start, I want you all to know, this is INTENDED to inflame people. It's a VERY polarized essay I've written. It also contains various spoilers from each series. But I think everyone here has seen almost all, if not all, of Gundam.*

When Gundam SEED came out in 2002, I was distressed at the use of Haro in the series. After all, Haro was a well known and well loved Universal Century character and he was suddenly being shrunk down to 1/4th his original size and given a new paint job. I was outraged. "I liked the original Haro! This was some new imposter!" I thought. But over time, I grew tolerance for Haro "2". I actually liked Haro 2's commentary (annoying as it could be).

Now we're faced with Zakus. So far, there are approximately 6 types of Zaku variants thus far in SEED. At first I was outraged. "The Zaku is a well known and loved UC MS that doesn't belong in another series." I thought.

In less time than it took for me to get over Haro, I've gotten over the Zaku. Who cares if it's a UC MS name in an AU series. Why does it matter? "Zaku" is a name. That's all it is. By the same token 'Zaku' shouldn't be used, the name Gundam' shouldn't be used either. Which means G Gundam, Gundam Wing, Gundam X, Endless Waltz, Turn-A, Gundam SEED and Gundam SEED Destiny shouldn't have existed - or at least not using the terms "Gundam" "Mobile Suit" "Beam Saber." For that matter, Sai Argyle shouldn’t exist because someone named Sai was in G Gundam. Ridiculous? I think so.

For that matter, we can apply it all over the place. After Getter Robo GO, there are no solid continuations in the Getter Robo Saga. 'Getter Robo: Armageddon' LOOSELY combines Getter Robo and Getter Robo G. "Shin Getter Robo vs Neo Getter Robo" LOOSELY combines Armageddon, GO and the original. Shin Getter Robo...wow...where to start. I think the only thing it has in common is the names of the characters and the name "Getter" I've only seen 3 episodes, but it looks to me like its random Oni attacking.

In each case of an AU Getter - They KEEP the names Hayato Jin, Michiru Saotome and Professor/Doctor Saotome intact. Ryo has over the years become Ryoma/Ryouma. Musashi and Benkei have merged together to form Benkei Musashibo. But in any case, I don't see Getter fans bashing the AU Getters for ruining Getter's legacy.

Bubblegum Crisis fans must also be up in arms. - BGC and BGCrash fans must be terribly afraid of BGC2040 and 2041. I haven't seen all of BGC or any of BGC2041, but I can imagine that using the EXACT SAME NAMES of the ENTIRE CAST must be very offensive.

The fact of the matter is, AUs in animes are common and they receive very little opposition to the general fan base - otherwise they wouldn't be so popular. Ghost in the Shell, Ninja Scroll, Nuku Nuku, X/1999, Silent Mobius, Macross, Evangelion, Escaflowne, Tenchi, Slayers, Patlabor, Azumanga Daioh, Mazinger Z, Iron Man 28, Speed Racer, Read or Die, Devilman, Cutey Honey and Revolutionary Girl Utena all have their very own examples of AUs. All of which follow a similar basic pattern, yet they aren't nearly as harshly criticized as AU Gundam attempts- which go an extra step of defining new characters and settings.

I've seen Getter Robo and it's AU offshoots - I like the AUs much more. Same goes for BGC vs BGC2040 and the same certainly goes for Gundam Wing, Gundam X, Gundam SEED and G Gundam over their UC counterparts.

Whereas Getter Robo Armageddon takes Getter Robo and makes it BETTER, AU Gundam takes the basic names of inanimate objects, creates new names, and changes the story altogether.


What makes Gundam so different? What makes Gundam Wing and Gundam SEED so reviled by one group of people, but this same group of people has no problem at all with the relationship between Getter Robo and Getter Robo: Armageddon? There really is no logical or rational explanation. Especially since the relationship that Getter Robo: Armageddon has with Getter Robo is much like the relationship SEED and Wing have with MSG. This is to say - taking the original and making a better version.

Personally, I think its petty elitism which has...for some reason...has infested the Gundam community, pitting AU vs UC and more especially, SEED or Wing against everyone else. Gundam is the largest and most popular out of all mecha series - by numbers. Literally tens of thousands of people around the world like Gundam and rate it as among their favorites. The same isn't necessarily true of Getter or Macross. While Getter and Macross have strong, reliable fan bases, but you don't see "SHIN GETTER VS NEO GETTER SUCKS!" websites. There are several anti-Wing sites though.

There are those in the Gundam fan community, whom no matter how badly you disprove them, always hail UC as the best and always worship Yoshiyuki Tomino is God. I don't discount the work he's done for Gundam- MSG, Zeta, ZZ, CCA and F-91 are all very good. But after F-91, he's shown how bad he gets. Victory Gundam was enjoyable from time to time, but it is by no stretch of the imagination a GOOD show. Same goes for the atrocious Turn-A, which many have noted I no longer add "Gundam" to its title when addressing it.

Certainly, I'm a partisan. I'm definately on the side of the AUs...or at least 5 of them over UC every time. I always will be. While it's true I did like almost all of UC...save for a single OVA and a single TV series, as a whole, UC is inferior to AU. Even though I loved 08th MS Team, 0080, MS Gundam as well as most of UC, I find that my biggest grudge isn't the stupid, nonsensical Tomino-style actions that are found all over the early UCs as it is the fans of Gundam themselves. My entire basis of my "hatred" for Turn-A stems from people who hail Turn-A as being the best ever, when they don't really open their eyes and see it for the ridiculous, mindless, remedial sludge it truly is. As I examine my position as an "AUist" I see that the hardcore UCists, which only charge G Gundam and Turn-A as being "true" AUs, are loads of crap. Merely being a universe other than UC makes them alternate histories. And in almost every case, the Successor universes are better than the Universal Century.


By the way, I put this in the General Gundam Talk for a reason - while it starts off being in defense of SEED/SEED-D, it goes go on to project all of Gundam, and even other animes.

[Tunks]

To open, all are entitled to their own opinions and often society is more willing to accept one's own opinion when they take the time to think it out and validate their reasons. No one should be forced to validate themselves, but backing yourself up with facts from time to time should be compulsory. And no that comment isn';t a hot at anyone, just a comment in regard to those in the past who have tried to make a post such as this but were excessivly bland and opinionated about it.

Having that said, to my responses.

IsaacJoule said:

Zakus in SEED Destiny

*Before I start, I want you all to know, this is INTENDED to inflame people. It's a VERY polarized essay I've written. It also contains various spoilers from each series. But I think everyone here has seen almost all, if not all, of Gundam.*

When Gundam SEED came out in 2002, I was distressed at the use of Haro in the series. After all, Haro was a well known and well loved Universal Century character and he was suddenly being shrunk down to 1/4th his original size and given a new paint job. I was outraged. "I liked the original Haro! This was some new imposter!" I thought. But over time, I grew tolerance for Haro "2". I actually liked Haro 2's commentary (annoying as it could be).

Now we're faced with Zakus. So far, there are approximately 6 types of Zaku variants thus far in SEED. At first I was outraged. "The Zaku is a well known and loved UC MS that doesn't belong in another series." I thought.

I agree that Haro and Zaku are what made UC, UC. Very cut and dry, but I wouldn't say I made as big a deal of it as some did. When i first started watching SEED, it was only my second taste of Gundam (After Wing) and though I had that feeling that Haro was UC's toy, I didn't get bothered that it was there. Infact, it wa small, pink, and talked differently. So maybe I just didn't see it as really being Haro.

About a month after starting Seed, I got into UC. and within three months I had seen almost all of UC, and I was hooked. There was something about UC that had that appea that Wing and Seed just couldn't grab for me. Yes I was originally a winger, hell at one point I could have been considered a seeder, but I very quickly evolved to a UCist. Luckily for some, I wasn't the snobby kind. Hell, at one point I really began to hate Seed and a lot of what it was trying to do.

But in the end I didn't care about "UC's mascot" being present. And then with Destiny rumors flaring up and the "Zaku" coming out, I had mixed feelings. I always saw Zaku as being UC's cannon fodder. Leo was Wing's cannon fodder. Dark Army was even G's cannon fodder. Part of me said "why are they borrowing cannon fodder?" but that part wasn't very loud. I think part of me didn't really care. I knew it wasn't the real Zaku that UCists know and love. I didn't see it as some travisty of the Gundam world for in my mind Seed had already "commited enough atrocities" what's one more?

Don't take that as thinking I'm trying to be hateful towards Seed, cause that's not how it's intended. Do i like Seed? Not really. Do i hate Seed? Same answer as my like for it. Do I fear the uprising of the AUists and their beloved remake of UC? Hell no, let them rise up and try to stomp us.

But continuing to watch Seed, the use of Haro just didn't bother me. Yes, I had other issue with Seed and it's remakiung of components of MSG and so forth.

In less time than it took for me to get over Haro, I've gotten over the Zaku. Who cares if it's a UC MS name in an AU series. Why does it matter? "Zaku" is a name. That's all it is. By the same token 'Zaku' shouldn't be used, the name Gundam' shouldn't be used either. Which means G Gundam, Gundam Wing, Gundam X, Endless Waltz, Turn-A, Gundam SEED and Gundam SEED Destiny shouldn't have existed - or at least not using the terms "Gundam" "Mobile Suit" "Beam Saber." For that matter, Sai Argyle shouldn’t exist because someone named Sai was in G Gundam. Ridiculous? I think so.

I agree with that which is part of what I said previously. Why be inconsistant in your demands of Gundam. Zaku and Haro can be used a million times for all I care, they wont be the original, and that's what matters. Same goes for the title of Gundam and such. That's part of the problem, people think that these AU's are ruining the original when really they're not. The only way it would ruin UC is if someone slapped the UC title on them. And that there would be an opinion on whether they are "ruined" or not.

As I said, I dont care if Destiny wants to use haro and Zaku. Though I do feel that Zaku doesn't fit. And this is from my objective and non UCist opinon. I dont think Zaku sounds right with Seed. Given the pattern for naming and such in the Seed series, I dont think Zaku fits into it. It may just be a personal taste, but it doesn't roll off the tongue with the other names. I mean, I assume it's to be the grunt for Destiny. While before it in Seed were Dinn's, Ginn's, Bacow's, and Daggers. I dont think Zaku fits with the naming pattern.

So Seed is a UC remake, big deal. I think at most, the use of the Zaku was just an overly enthusiastic effort at trying to incorporate the past. But as I said, the use of Zaku doesn't bother me one way or another.

For that matter, we can apply it all over the place. After Getter Robo GO, there are no solid continuations in the Getter Robo Saga. 'Getter Robo: Armageddon' LOOSELY combines Getter Robo and Getter Robo G. "Shin Getter Robo vs Neo Getter Robo" LOOSELY combines Armageddon, GO and the original. Shin Getter Robo...wow...where to start. I think the only thing it has in common is the names of the characters and the name "Getter" I've only seen 3 episodes, but it looks to me like its random Oni attacking.

In each case of an AU Getter - They KEEP the names Hayato Jin, Michiru Saotome and Professor/Doctor Saotome intact. Ryo has over the years become Ryoma/Ryouma. Musashi and Benkei have merged together to form Benkei Musashibo. But in any case, I don't see Getter fans bashing the AU Getters for ruining Getter's legacy.

Bubblegum Crisis fans must also be up in arms. - BGC and BGCrash fans must be terribly afraid of BGC2040 and 2041. I haven't seen all of BGC or any of BGC2041, but I can imagine that using the EXACT SAME NAMES of the ENTIRE CAST must be very offensive.

The fact of the matter is, AUs in animes are common and they receive very little opposition to the general fan base - otherwise they wouldn't be so popular. Ghost in the Shell, Ninja Scroll, Nuku Nuku, X/1999, Silent Mobius, Macross, Evangelion, Escaflowne, Tenchi, Slayers, Patlabor, Azumanga Daioh, Mazinger Z, Iron Man 28, Speed Racer, Read or Die, Devilman, Cutey Honey and Revolutionary Girl Utena all have their very own examples of AUs. All of which follow a similar basic pattern, yet they aren't nearly as harshly criticized as AU Gundam attempts- which go an extra step of defining new characters and settings.

I've seen Getter Robo and it's AU offshoots - I like the AUs much more. Same goes for BGC vs BGC2040 and the same certainly goes for Gundam Wing, Gundam X, Gundam SEED and G Gundam over their UC counterparts.

Whereas Getter Robo Armageddon takes Getter Robo and makes it BETTER, AU Gundam takes the basic names of inanimate objects, creates new names, and changes the story altogether.

[Tunks]

(double post due to being too long)


The only logical argument that I can bring up here is that besides being the most popular mecha series, Gundam had a long run and a large devoted following before the first AU ever showed up on the scene. In the other instances you brought up, none of those anime's went on for some 16 years almost constantly before a new Universe was brought up.

The point there is that in it's 16 years of pure UC, it created a tradition and devoted following. That's partly why so many old school fans have a major thorn in their side at AU's. To them it's just not natural. Then you have the new-age UCists who bandwagoned on that idea. Then you have your more rare, third bracket of UCists who evolved into their role simply cause they feel more comfortable there.

But that's the biggest argument I can bring up in favor of an Anti-Au, drawn out tradition. That's not to say I agree with it. Like you said, G and TAG were widely accepted by UCists while Wing and Seed were scrutinized.

What makes Gundam so different? What makes Gundam Wing and Gundam SEED so reviled by one group of people, but this same group of people has no problem at all with the relationship between Getter Robo and Getter Robo: Armageddon? There really is no logical or rational explanation. Especially since the relationship that Getter Robo: Armageddon has with Getter Robo is much like the relationship SEED and Wing have with MSG. This is to say - taking the original and making a better version.

Personally, I think its petty elitism which has...for some reason...has infested the Gundam community, pitting AU vs UC and more especially, SEED or Wing against everyone else. Gundam is the largest and most popular out of all mecha series - by numbers. Literally tens of thousands of people around the world like Gundam and rate it as among their favorites. The same isn't necessarily true of Getter or Macross. While Getter and Macross have strong, reliable fan bases, but you don't see "SHIN GETTER VS NEO GETTER SUCKS!" websites. There are several anti-Wing sites though.

This is basically responded to in my statements above.

There are those in the Gundam fan community, whom no matter how badly you disprove them, always hail UC as the best and always worship Yoshiyuki Tomino is God. I don't discount the work he's done for Gundam- MSG, Zeta, ZZ, CCA and F-91 are all very good. But after F-91, he's shown how bad he gets. Victory Gundam was enjoyable from time to time, but it is by no stretch of the imagination a GOOD show. Same goes for the atrocious Turn-A, which many have noted I no longer add "Gundam" to its title when addressing it.

Certainly, I'm a partisan. I'm definately on the side of the AUs...or at least 5 of them over UC every time. I always will be. While it's true I did like almost all of UC...save for a single OVA and a single TV series, as a whole, UC is inferior to AU. Even though I loved 08th MS Team, 0080, MS Gundam as well as most of UC, I find that my biggest grudge isn't the stupid, nonsensical Tomino-style actions that are found all over the early UCs as it is the fans of Gundam themselves. My entire basis of my "hatred" for Turn-A stems from people who hail Turn-A as being the best ever, when they don't really open their eyes and see it for the ridiculous, mindless, remedial sludge it truly is. As I examine my position as an "AUist" I see that the hardcore UCists, which only charge G Gundam and Turn-A as being "true" AUs, are loads of crap. Merely being a universe other than UC makes them alternate histories. And in almost every case, the Successor universes are better than the Universal Century.


By the way, I put this in the General Gundam Talk for a reason - while it starts off being in defense of SEED/SEED-D, it goes go on to project all of Gundam, and even other animes.

And in these final statements, it's purely opinion. Down to the point that you dislike Victory while it's one of my favorites. While you love AU's more despite your enjoyment of UC, I love UC more despite having started loving Au. I started as a Winger. I evolved into a Seeder. Then on to UC. I generally dont openly bash the series that i originally found some enjoyment in, though I do get a sense of enjoyment out of antagonizing those who do love AU more.

I am a UCist, I'll probably always be a UCist. And to unintentionaly fall into the UCist ranks, G Gundam is probably my favorite AU. But I dont worship Tomino as a diety. And I've yet to fall on to the TAG bandwagon with "every self respecting UCist". Yes, that's a stereotype. I will finish TAG as I will finish Destiny. I dont hold a lot of hope for either series but part of that is me not getting my hopes up.

but. I dont agree that the AU's and succesors of different series are always the better. I can go either way though depending on the anime. But you cant expect the masses to go one way or another cause there are just too many. Especially with Gundam. There are over 25 movies/ova's/series. Someone's bound to think differently from you. There's always going to be rivalries in the fandom world. UC vs Au, dub vs sub, Suzaku vs Seiyuu, Saiyajin vs whatever sad existance it goes against, and so many more.

That's what's the greatest part about fandom, you can have rivalries like that and unlike the sporting world, there have yet to be any deaths caused by it. Going onto forums or to conventions and being able to debate your sides on these never ending wars is one of the most entertaining parts of anime fandom. The down side is that some people forget that they can turn off their tv's and computers.

So in all, the war wont end and it will never make total sense to everyone. You can call me a UCist, elitist, Tominoist, or an old-school snob. And I can turn around and call you a Auist right wing nut-job. But then we'd be just as bad as politicians.

[isaacjoule]

First, I'd like to respond with saying - I wasn't addressing this to any one person. More like a submission for peer review.

Second - the 70s era Getter, Mazinger, Grendizer and Devilman all take place within the same universe. So, you've got (Chronologically)-

Devil Man, Mazinger Z, Getter Robo, Great Mazinger, Getter Robo G and Grendizer within a several year window. Then, years later you have a spinoff for Getter Robo GO. Thats' 20 years there.

Mazinger and Getter themselves are 30 years old. By your logic, even they should be experiencing such problems as Gundam. So I find it difficult to believe that a fan base that's only a few years older than Gundam doesn't experience the same turmoil.

Then I thought about another factor. Most Go Nagai fans are still Japanese. Whereas the US, Canada and England have all taken stakes in the Gundam game. Also, I'd like to note that it's mostly Americans, Canadians and Brits who are complaining about this- or, at least they are the only ones I've had contact with, that complain about it. Singaporians and Japanese whom I've talked to don't seem to care that the names "Zaku" and "Haro" are recycled.

In Japan, the AUs were successful in their own right as stand alone shows. But poorly as Gundam series. SEED, being the new UC is doing a lot better.

The hardcore UCists (You know who I'm talking about)...probably on both sides of the Pacific... don't seem to want a new UC and look for every excuse to trash and tear SEED down.

Now - I think if Getter Robo or Mazinger were to come up with a totally new series, even with the same characters, which totally negates any need for the 70s era shows, perhaps we would see the same kind of resentment SEED has suffered with.